One of my favorite topics is the unrealistic portrayal of girls in the media, so I’m going to direct you here, where they are discussing it in depth.
Hope your week is going well.
Filed under: Life
The Lolita Effect
Posted on May 28, 2008 by Sherri Cornelius
It’s a valid topic. One thing I believe is that the surge of feminism and the breakdown of the family contribute to this. When girls don’t get the support and approval they need from their fathers, they will turn to other men to affirm them. At the same time, the feminist movement tells them women don’t need men, that sex isn’t about commitment, it’s about pleasure. It’s a recipe for disaster.
I think it needs to be brought into the discussion as well, the influence of other cultures. Why is the child sex trade so huge in Asia?
You say the unrealistic portrayal of girls in the media … what do you mean by unrealistic?
Well, that all normal girls have a certain body type, that they only care what boys think of them, that being sexy is the most important thing.
I’m not sure how to address the feminist remark, because it seems we have different views of what feminism is. I’ll have to think about that.
I think Falcon has skirted (if you’ll pardon the pun) as close to the issue as I’ve heard articulated.
Feel free to debate this assertion, but female power has sociologically has been tied to their sexuality. With the advent of girl-power and all flavors of girl empowerment, the corresponding empowerment of girl-sexuality seems to be keeping pace.
I’m on record as saying that if you think your 15 year old daughter is not a sexual being, you are deluding yourself and forgetting the girl you were (or the girls you dated) when you were 15. I also maintain that the women most in a tizzy about teenage sexuality are frequently the moms who are transitioning out of their sexual power while their daughters are assuming it.
That’s harsh, I know. But I’m calling it like I see it.
So, Sherri Blossoms, my question to you is: “At what age is it okay for a girl to be a sexual being?”
I’m NOT asking “At what age should we stop protecting our daughters from creepy older men?”
I sincereously want to know when you think it’s “okay” for a girl to think of herself sexually. Specific. Give me a specific age.
When all the FLDS brouha-ha was going on last month talking about 13 and 14 year old girls being married off, my first thought was: “Do people not know that the national age of consent in Japan is 13?”
And my second thought was “Do people not know that men are flying back from America to India every frickin’ day for arranged marriages to 13 and 14 year old girls who will stay in India until they are 18?”
Granted, crazy sh!t in other cultures generally gets a pass, but if you asked the average schmoe on the street, “Are Japan and India civilized societies?” what do you think their answer is going to be?
Again, I’m all for a bright line whereby our culture protects our girls from their own youthful stupidity. But It’s getting harder not to roll my eyes when I hear the innate sexuality of young teen girls equivocated to the marketing sexualizing of six and seven year olds; When I hear sixteen and seventeen-year-old girls called “children.”
That’s a rhetorical canard.
I can’t help but wonder “Did all you women REALLY become self-aware at the age of majority? REALLY? Cause I remember dating fourteen, fifteen, and sixteen year old girls when I was a youngster and they weren’t all that damned chaste 25 years ago. I can’t believe they are any moreso in 2008.
I think there’s a lot of convenient amnesiac revisionism that goes on between the time y’all are 14 and the time you are the parent of a 14 year old.
Oh, and for the record, I first met and dated my wife when we were 14.
I didn’t boink her at 14, but there was a LOT of heavy petting going on.
Our oldest daughter will be turning 14 soon, and my wife is a total hypocrite regarding the possibility that HER 14 year old would be sexually interested in boys.
Why thanks Dwight!
I think there’s a lot of hypocritical BS in our country - we pretty much act like it’s ok for our daughters to go around like prostitots, then we want to imprison the men for taking them up on what is apparently offered. Go hang out at the local jr. high when the kids get out of school and tell me you don’t think the girls look like little tramps most of the time.
I think there’s a lot of truth to what you were saying about moms getting so upset over their daughter’s sexuality at the time when they are moving into menopause. We do hate to wave goodbye to our own youth. I also believe there’s the hope of those moms that their daughters won’t be as stupid as they themselves were. Perhaps it’s a vain hope, but it’s still there none the less. It’s a known fact that people’s brains aren’t even done developing until the early 20’s - and to make decisions about personal sexuality before that time can be disastrous. Why do we allow the age of consent to be so low, kids to drive, to vote, to marry, before they’re done growing? I think we’re abdicating too much of our own responsibility as parents and expecting our kids to parent themselves.
And thanks for bringing up the issues in Japan and India. Those are some of the things I was thinking of in my previous comment.
We are sexual beings from birth, but as parents we do have a responsibility to teach our kids about that, and to protect them, even if it means protecting them from themselves and their own stupidity. Oh, my heart goes out to Mrs Dwight! Send her mom-to-mom hugs from me!
Sherri - I think I know what you’re thinking when I say feminism. And I think we’re talking about 2 different things. You are talking about equality and such, right? I’m talking about the radical kind that teaches it’s okay for young girls to have sex and abortions because it means they’re in control of their own bodies. Here’s a link to an article by the daughter of one such feminist - I think (hope!) it’ll give you a clearer idea of what I’m talking about. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1021293/Alice-Walker-feminist-icon-wrote-The-Color-Purple-Here-daughter-reveals-fanatical-views-motherhood-tore-apart-.html Good grief that’s a long link! I hope it shows up ok! If it doesn’t, let me know and I’ll email it to you.
You’ve certainly struck a nerve with this one, I think! I know you’re gearing up too, what with your oldest entering puberty, and your bonus daughter a teen now. ( I love that, bonus child! So cool!) I do think though that there’s a lot of truth in what the media often portrays - that girls seem to be only interested in boys and attracting them. Like I said, go hang out at the local jr high and see if it isn’t true. Girls develop faster than boys, and man do they want to show it off! Scary!
Hugs to you hon!
Well, let’s see. Dwight, I am all-too aware of how sexual a teenage girl can be. Nobody said teenage girls weren’t sexual creatures. Did you read the post and the subsequent comments? I know you have very definite opinions about this subject because we’ve touched on them before, but I think you’ve missed the point. The problem comes when it’s not their own sexuality they’re expressing, but someone else’s.
Fal, I understand your point about feminism, but I have to say, I don’t believe that kind of radical, man-hating, free-love, let’s-kill-our-fetuses kind of feminism is nearly as prevalent as you are saying.
Part of the discussion at Ello’s blog is about what feeds what. Is the media’s idea of what a girl should care about actually creating this in our girls, or was it there the whole time, or do they perpetuate each other? I make no judgements, I only follow this interesting discussion. It’s a worthwhile topic.
Forgot to say, the issue is not only young ladies performing sex acts. It’s about how they feel about their bodies and their place in the world.
I read every word, multiple times.
Did you read mine? At what age are girls entitled to feel like sexual beings. Gimme a number. Until you spit out a number, don’t dog me.
Girls are the ones championing sexuality as a mechanism of power. Have you seen the covers on the women’s magazine?
Guys are just stupid dogs. When guys are 14 they aren’t looking at 14 year old girls as sexual. They are looking at the 18 year old girls. When men are 18 they’re looking for a Mrs. Robinson MILF to teach them the ropes. The sexualization of young girls really stems from young girls and young women saying “HEY, LOOK AT ME, DAMMIT! I’M RIGHT FRICKIN’ HERE!”
Dwight, I think your question, “At what age are girls entitled to feel like sexual beings?” is missing something. I don’t think they’re “entitled” to feel like sexual beings until they’re mature enough to handle the consequences of being sexual beings. That age will vary with the individual.
I do agree that girls know their sexuality is a power tool - men want it, they got it. I also agree with Sherri that girls seem to be taught that they’re supposed to feel that way. It’s also true that other women seem to perpetuate that - like the women’s magazines you mentioned. And other kids seem to think it’s important; I know of girls who were asked by classmates in 2nd grade if they had kissed a boyfriend yet, and were mocked when they said, “no.” Kids have the cart before the horse. They seem to think that having sex means they’re a grown-up, when in reality, it’s being a grown-up that makes it okay to be sexual.
As far as “Is the media’s idea of what a girl should care about actually creating this in our girls, or was it there the whole time, or do they perpetuate each other?” I would have to say I think they encourage each other. I think girls care about these things, the media touts it, the girls see that and care more, and on and on.
Wow. These comments are like salt on a wound if I’m honest. I don’t have a daughter and I’m 39–just to get that info out of the way. I do have a 5 year old son. And I can tell you that when I was 14 I was horrified at a boy coming anywhere near me. I could not figure out how I was supposed to be pretty and safe. I was mocked for not wearing make up, though I wanted to, but again, I could figure out the rules. Want to be liked. Don’t want to have sex. If I wear makeup then I must be flaunting my self and trying to get a man.
More than once in my life men have made me feel I do not exist because I didn’t look sexy. I got older and tried the sexy look thing. That was not a good experience.
What age is anyone entitled to be a sexual being? I don’t know. When she’s damn well ready and not before because men insist that all the skimpy clothes and pouty looks are put on all for the same reason.
Sure. I had a cousin and a step-sister who were sleeping around at 14. Some girls dress the way they do to attract men and have sex. Some do it to gain approval of other girls. Some do it get back at their parents. Some do it because their mother’s do it and that’s what they know. Some girls do it with some idea of pleasing someone with no clue how to please themselves (and I mean that in a multitude of ways). Since plenty of teenage girls had sex before abortion was legal and women studies classes were in colleges, I fail to see what they have to do with.
So, in a way I think Dwight is right about young girls dressing and acting the way they do to shout “Hey look at me…” because too many men won’t acknowledge they exist unless they are sexy. You can be smart, funny, adventurous, but if you’re not sexy, this culture is really not interested. This is why if you are a twit but you’re sexy, then hey–be a twit. Plenty of men will love you anyway.
And clear something up for me. Is anyone suggesting that in cultures where 40 yr old men marry 13 yr old girls, it is because the 13 yr old girls have so much power over their sex lives that they like it this way? Seems to me that the countries with 13 yr old brides are also countries that murder women or throw them out into the street for having sex outside of marriage or even for being raped. I’m thinking these places are not exactly role models for anyone’s sexuality.
A teenage girl is entitled to be a sexual being if she chooses, but why do men get to decide what that means? Perhaps if so many girls see sex as a power tool, maybe that’s because it’s the only power tool they think they have access to. Sure, women may have the power to distract a man, turn his head, preoccupy his thoughts. Whatever. But let’s see–compare a situation where a girl wants sex but a boy doesn’t to a situation where the boy wants sex and the girl doesn’t. Who really has the greater power there?
Sorry, Sherri for rattling on so long. Obviously you struck a nerve–and good for you! ha-ha.
Yeah, and I was just linking!
And thank you, Fal and Mapelba for saying what I would have said if I weren’t in such a bad mood and afraid of what might come out of my mouth.
Yes, it’s been 42 years since I was 14 years old, but I remember wearing makeup and cute, maybe even sexy clothes because I thought I looked good that way. Admittedly, I wanted to look good to attract boys, and to impress the other girls with how “cute” I was, but it was mostly because I liked the way it made me feel. I don’t thinks it’s all about making a girl feel sexy or sexually attractive. It’s about feeling pretty.
Nope nope nope.
Rhetorical Bullshit Maneuver.
Men don’t decide anything. Society doesn’t decide anything. The Media doesn’t decide anything. Put your pointed finger back in your pocket, Sister.
Girls decide for themselves. They always have. They always will. Girls model their behavior on female memes and archetypes they see in women a few years ahead of them.
Nobody is forcing this behavior on women. Nobody has a plan for “this is how I will remake women in ____ image.”
You are doing it to yourselves. It is the natural progression of sociological mores.
There is no villain. There is no conspiracy.
Girls model their sense-of-self based on their … oh this is a terrible word, but “marketability.” Blaming men for the hard wired programming of their biological drive to continue the species is like blaming the wind for blowing.
Again, young tween boys aren’t really interested in young tween girls. They’re looking at developed older high school girls. When boys are in high school they are looking toward permiscuous college girls. When boys are in college they are looking to older MILF women who know the ropes.
It is WOMEN’s competitive nature to attract the attention of men from other WOMEN that feeds the “marketing” instinct.
Now, as a society, we’ve made it as difficult as we can for parents to say “NO EFFIN’ WAY YOU ARE WEARING THAT OUT OF THE HOUSE, KID!” Without that gut check, without that maginot line of common sense, there is no break in the flow of modeling behavior. Ergo, we can feel a little uneasy about thirteen year olds dressing and acting like sixteen year olds, and yet we just kind of stand on the sidelines as the eight year olds model the tweens. Even though we are beset with the “this is so WRONG” revulsion at prostitots.
We’ve removed discipline from the family structure. We are a culture that permits the whims of the children to run the household.
Don’t like it?
Fine.
Step one: Answer the effing question. At what age is it acceptable for a girl to THINK OF HERSELF as a sexual entity? Until you can establish that one, simple bright line benchmark, you forfiet the right to bitch about the gray area on either side of it.
You know, I felt bullied by your comments the other day, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Now I see you haven’t listened to a thing we women have said. THERE IS NO SPECIFIC AGE. It depends upon the girl. It takes years to reach sexual maturity. Don’t like it? Fine.
You’re fighting an old battle, obviously, which has nothing whatsoever to do with me. Stop trying to beat me over the head with your agenda. Stop yelling at me. It’s not nice.
Now for a calmer reaction: Parents hold ultimate responsibility, definitely. But you can’t ignore the influences which make the parents’ job harder. Media and marketing play a part, you can’t deny it. So does the breakdown of the family unit, as Fal pointed out.
As adults (18+) it’s our job to make sure our girls AND our boys learn to control the childish impulses and insecurities which cause them to make bad choices. It’s our job to do everything we can to make sure they don’t make those bad choices.
It’s our job, our responsibility as a society, to NOT exploit them, even if its their choice, because until a child is 16, 17, 18, their brains are not developed. (Search on “frontal lobe teen” and take your pick of any article.)
But the fact remains that children ARE exploited on a daily basis, and we as a society seem to accept it as totally fine, even though individually we don’t. We really need to look at the reasons without applying blame before we can fix it, I think.
Why this obsession with some random age benchmark? Age is a number. It makes as much sense to say a girl is entitled to be sexual at any one specific age as to say you’re sensible enough to vote at 18 and smart enough to drink at 21.
I’d like to say that I don’t like being called sister by a stranger. I thought I was explaining my point of view without pointing my finger. And I didn’t realize that women were responsible for all the images of women out there in the world.
But Dwight still proves that there are some men who still only look at women for their sexuality. They think you’re only a real women if you are sexual in a way that they see as sexual. Apparently you can’t be sexual in a long skirt and without make up.
I was under the impression that dressing in sexy clothes was not a requirement for being sexual or having sex. I’m pretty sure i knew girls who wore no makeup and conservative clothes who had sex. I’m also sure that sexy clothes don’t mean one wants to have sex.
I don’t know. What does it mean anyway to feel like a sexual being? Feeling happy with one’s body? Looking sexy? Having sex with boys? With girls? If someone thinks they are sexy but no one will look at them twice, are they sexy? If girls are dressing up to look sexy for a man, isn’t it the man who decides if that works? Being sexy and being sexually available are two different things.
Even the Puritans were sexual, happily making baby Puritans.
I think both of you, Dwight and Sherri, have valid points. And you both agree that the breakdown of the family unit has a part to play in young girls being over-sexualized. Dwight has a point in that girls naturally feel that way and are acting on it without benefit of parental restraint, and Sherri has a point in that the media seems to encourage that sort of behavior as acceptable.
Dwight, you asked at what age is a girl allowed to think of herself as a sexual being. If you want a number, how about 18? That is the current legal age of adulthood. It used to be 21. Personally, I don’t think that 18 year olds are mature enough to vote, marry, have children, but the courts don’t care what I think. And yes, I say 18 because I am a mom, and because I have been 18 and remember how stupid I myself was. I remember liking the feeling of making the boys sweat. I was a tease, but not because I wanted to have sex as much as I wanted to be wanted. And the boys liked it. If they hadn’t, I wouldn’t have kept it up - they encouraged me to act like I did. I got positive feedback. So while you are right in saying girls decide for themselves how to act, it is just as true that men also decide how girls act by their very encouragement. Girls wouldn’t do it if it didn’t work. Do you disagree?
Just because kids have hormones instead of brains and are - for all intents and purposes - sexual beings, doesn’t mean it’s OK for them to act on those feelings. Kids are stupid, period, and should not have the right to make adult decisions when they are not yet adults. That’s why God invented parents - to protect kids from themselves and their own stupidity.
Sherri, you are right in saying there is a problem with how girls see themselves. Are men totally to blame for that? In all honesty, I don’t think so. The single biggest contributor to a girl’s self-image are her parents. But something happens when the hormones start kicking in. Suddenly they start thinking they’re ugly, that they need to diet, wear more make-up, dress differently. I have seen arrogant little girls who believed all their lives that they were the most beautiful creatures on earth suddenly doubt themselves, turn to bulimia, diet pills, short skirts and belly shirts because, “I’m so ugly! I’m so fat!” I don’t know what happened. I finally came to the conclusion that something occurred with the hormones, and that it must be some kind of necessary phase for a girl to go through to start developing her own identity, some kind of instinct that kicked in so they could begin separating from their mother’s view of them and grow into their own view of themselves, and that they had to start from the ground up. Perhaps I’m way off the mark with my assessment, but do you disagree?
It’s been determined that girls also “test” their sexuality to see how it fits. Ideally, they’ll try it with their fathers when they have a safe, loving dad. Girls will flirt, and it’s been the dad’s job to let them know what’s acceptable and what’s not, so the girls will know how to behave around boys. Boys also flirt with their mothers for the same reasons. Parents are presumed safe to try out these new waters, presumed capable of teaching them how to “swim.” That is the standard of normal sexual development. I won’t even touch the issue of perverted parents since that’s not what we’re talking about. This is also why it’s so important for parents to have a loving marriage - it sets an example for the kids too.
Personally, I think the “media” likes to claim responsibility for itself, and assume more power than it has a right to. It’s a good slave but a terrible master and is only as knowledgeable and enlightened as the person writing the article. And it’s power is directly proportional to the amount of influence and involvement parents have in their children’s lives. It’s up to parents to monitor that media influence and to restrict it as much as they can, and to teach their children critical thinking skills. I believe Dwight is correct in saying that we’ve removed discipline from parents and cowed to the whims of the children. We simply cannot allow, “All the other kids are doing it!” to be a guideline for parenting. We need morals, we need ethics, we need a standard of right and wrong. Chaos ensues when we don’t have those things. Parents need to make a stand and stop letting kids and/or the media tell us how to raise our children. No one said it would be easy, but it IS necessary.
Sherri love, you said something else I wanted to touch on: “But the fact remains that children ARE exploited on a daily basis, and we as a society seem to accept it as totally fine, even though individually we don’t. We really need to look at the reasons without applying blame before we can fix it, I think.” You are absolutely right on the mark there. Children ARE exploited. Why do people exploit them? Because they can. It’s not a male thing and it’s not a female thing, it’s a human thing. The strong will always exploit the weak, the predators will always find prey. It has always been so, and it will always be so. I’m sorry Berrykins but you can’t fix it. That’s why we have laws, to punish those who exploit, abuse, harm. But if we lose our standards, then the law is no good, for then everything and everyone is fair game.
Hugs to both of you.